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Life & Times Transcript
12/18/07 Val Zavala>> Tonight on Life and Times -- Thirty years ago, it became a haven for Vietnamese refugees, but are their children now abandoning Little Saigon? Jeffrey Brody>> What we have to see is, as a younger generation emerges in Orange County, will they be shopping at Little Saigon or will they be shopping at Westminster Mall? Will they be eating here or will they be eating along, you know, the coast? Val Zavala>> And then, it looks like a painting and has a lyrical name, so what better setting for the "Garden of Flowing Fragrance" than the grounds of the Huntington? We'll take you inside on tonight's Life and Times. Announcer>> Life and Times is made possible through the generous support of the L.K. Whittier Foundation dedicated to improving the quality of life by supporting innovative endeavors in the fields of medicine, health, science and education. And by a generous grant from Jim and Anne Rothenberg. With additional support for Life and Times from The Ralph M. Parsons Foundation. Val Zavala>> Little Saigon. It's the heart, soul and commercial hub of Vietnamese American life here in southern California. But some people say that it's in danger and, if current trends continue, it could go the way of Chinatown, a mere shell of its former self. So is there a way to save Little Saigon? Orange County reporter Roger Cooper has our story. Roger Cooper>> The impact of a war is felt long after the fighting stops. Today, more than thirty years after the Vietnam War, there's an area of Orange County known as Little Saigon. [Film Clip] Roger Cooper>> In the chaos during the fall of Saigon, thousands of refugees from South Vietnam made their way to California, first to Camp Pendleton and then north forty miles to Westminster and Little Saigon where this Vietnam war memorial now stands. Anh Do>> We were lucky to arrive in one of the last airplanes before the fall of Saigon. Roger Cooper>> Some eighty thousand Vietnamese Americans have made Little Saigon their home. Jeffrey Brody>> Orange County has the largest Vietnamese community in the world outside Vietnam. It's larger than Paris, it's larger than anywhere else. Roger Cooper>> The question is, will it stay this way? Many of those refugees started successful businesses from mom and pop shops in strip malls to bigger stores like those inside the Asian Garden Mall. If you're looking for that place where east meets west, this is it. [Film Clip] Roger Cooper>> But dragons don't dance every day in Little Saigon. It can be as unexotic as any other place. And Little Saigon is facing a challenge, the possibility of losing its younger generation. This is a generation that's tempted to turn to other areas of Orange County for shopping and eventually for places to live. It's similar to the exodus that happened in Los Angeles's Chinatown. Newspaper reporter and columnist Anh Do doesn't want to see that happen. Anh Do>> Specifically to talk about Chinatown in Los Angeles, as the population matures, people leave the city and go for the suburbs like we've seen with so many other groups coming to the United States. They settle in a completely new place and revitalize that area. Roger Cooper>> Westminster City Manager Ray Silver says there's still time to reverse the trend. Ray Silver>> Having watched, for instance, Chinatown in Los Angeles where I was born, it didn't do the things it needed to do to stay successful over time. Roger Cooper>> So how do you keep Little Saigon thriving as it matures? The key, he says, is to attract more visitors from the broader community, visitors who are drawn to its shops and restaurants, but that means updating the area's commercial districts. Ray Silver>> And with simply the constant change in retail and how it attracts people, we're going to have to bump it up a little bit. It's too much of a hassle to park here right now, to drive through it. The sidewalks aren't wide enough. There's not a chance for leisurely dining and just people-watching, those things that attract people of different ages. Roger Cooper>> It also means using more signs in English. Anh Do>> In the course of my reporting, a lot of sources tell me that they don't understand only Vietnamese [technical difficulty]. Roger Cooper>> [continued technical difficulty]. He agrees that it will have to change if it wants to appeal to a younger crowd. Jeffrey Brody>> What we have to see is, as a younger generation emerges in Orange County, will they be shopping at Little Saigon or will they be shopping at Westminster Mall? Will they be eating here or will they be eating along, you know, the coast? The question is, you know, how will the young Vietnamese adopt Little Saigon? Many of my students, you know, go to the place for the food, but not so much for the shopping. Roger Cooper>> A plan was drawn up back in October. A team from the Urban Land Institute came in and spent three days touring Little Saigon. They came up with some recommendations. Create themed districts with one centering on food, another on Vietnamese culture. Around Little Saigon's television stations and newspapers, establish a media entertainment district. It would be something like Times Square with large television screens crawling headlines. And offer young people loft living and sidewalk cafes. While many have embraced the report, Westminster mayor Margie Rice has not. Margie Rice>> I wasn't too impressed (laughter), frankly. Roger Cooper>> Why not? Margie Rice>> Well, I think I know the area better than they do. It was a group of people that came from Florida and all over. When you've lived here and you mingle with your people and you work with your people, you know what they want and what they need. Roger Cooper>> But Anh Do says that many more community leaders believe the ideas should be given serious consideration. Anh Do>> I think that they can re-energize a lot of what is here and add to it. Not everything needs to be changed. It just needs a little bit of sprucing up. Roger Cooper>> Some Little Saigon business people are already modernizing. This is the Dinh family in 1975, the year Saigon fell. Carolyn Nguyen>> We've been in the jewelry business in Little Saigon over twenty years. Roger Cooper>> And now the younger sisters and brothers in the family are beginning to take over operation of the family's jewelry businesses. They want to be sure that there will be a business for them to run. Melissa Dinh>> Exactly. That's why we have to know what's up to date, all the new styles and the new trends that's out there right now. Roger Cooper>> In an effort to say viable, the family has opened a new store specifically geared to younger customers, many of whom don't speak Vietnamese. [Film Clip] Roger Cooper>> And they've started airing this, their first television commercial. Professor Brody thinks the city should have already done more to attract new patrons. Jeffrey Brody>> The city has not been so generous so far and they haven't done things to beautify Little Saigon. I mean, they could have created a wide boulevard with trees. They could have had more of an Asian look to the architecture. What you essentially see is California style mini malls with Vietnamese writing. Roger Cooper>> City Manager Ray Silver says, if Chinatown is a cautionary tale, there are other places that could be a model for Little Saigon. Ray Silver>> My dream, I guess, would be to add what's become the Olvera Street for Orange County. Olvera Street means somewhat of a Latino background. I relate to it. It's not just for Latinos. It's really for all ethnic groups, but it has an ethnic base for it. I think we have the opportunity to do that. That'll make it very unique. Roger Cooper>> Anh Do believes Little Saigon can continue being the cultural center and commercial capital for Vietnamese living outside Vietnam. Anh Do>> I like to look at things in a good light. Because our population is a newer immigrant population, I think there's a chance for us to grab hold of that destiny and sort of mold it in a more decisive way. So, you know, we haven't been here hundreds of years, so we can still write the history that will be reflected on us right now. Roger Cooper>> So will Little Saigon adapt or decline? At the entrance to the Asian Garden Mall is a stone figure depicting the God of Longevity and this community is hoping that longevity is a blessing bestowed on Little Saigon. I'm Roger Cooper for Life and Times. Val Zavala>> So what direction do you think Little Saigon should take? You can post your comments on our blog. Just go to kcet.org/lifeandtimes/blog. Announcer>> Kcet.org is the place to look for the very latest on Life and Times. You'll find previews of upcoming stories, plus transcripts and audio of past episodes and links to some of our most interesting features. Just go to kcet.org, scroll down the page and click on "Life and Times". Val Zavala>> When it comes to passing the California bar exam, that tough legal test, blacks are six times more likely to fail than whites. Some people blame it on affirmative action, saying blacks who are admitted to tough law schools often fall behind, and they want bar officials to release data on race and the bar exam. But California bar officials have refused. For a lively debate around our Kitchen Table, we brought three people together. Professor Richard Sander of UCLA wants the bar to release the data. Holly Fujie of the State Bar Board of Governors says they can't. Our conversation is moderated by Joe Hicks of CommUnity Advocates. Joe Hicks>> Holly and Rick, thanks for coming in and talking about your request to have the state bar divulge some data that -- I may be wrong here -- but I think the state bar is not too eager to give up. Rick, what is it that you've asked the state bar to provide you and why do you ask for that data? Richard Sander>> Well, there are dozens of legal scholars around the country who are trying to test something called the mismatch effect. The mismatch theory concerns whether students have worse outcomes when they go to a school where their credentials are much lower than their classmates. I think the easiest example to understand is actually not from the law school context, but from the college context. There's very strong evidence that, if you look at high school seniors, blacks, Hispanics and whites all have very similar interest in science. Asians have a slightly higher interest rate in science, but blacks, Hispanics and whites are all about the same. But when blacks and Hispanics receive large preferences and go to schools where other students' credentials are much higher than theirs, they drop out of those science majors in droves. I think you can imagine why. You know, if you're interested in chemistry, say, and you go to a school where the other students have much higher test scores and much stronger high school records than you do, it's real easy to get lost and to feel extremely frustrated. We think something similar happens in law school. The California Bar is really relevant because they've got the best out in the country on law school bar results going back about thirty years. It's the perfect data set to test these questions. Joe Hicks>> Now, Holly, this seems like information we'd want to know. Why is the state bar saying this is not a good idea to give out this data to Rick's research team? Holly Fujie>> Well, it's not a question of saying it's not a good idea to give the information out. The fact is that we are restricted from being able to give that information out by the terms by which we got the information. Information relating to race is a part of the application for registration as a law student that is voluntary. It also includes a statement that says that the information is only going to be used to relate to the efficacy or the effectiveness of the bar exam. The fact is that the types of studies that the bar has done relate to whether or not there's a bias to the bar exam, whether or not particular parts of the bar exam are effective and whether they work. The fact is that Professor Sander's study is not related to the effectiveness of the bar exam. It's something that goes outside of the scope of what was intended to be involved -- Richard Sander>> -- Holly's argument is that she says they can only use the data to study the efficacy of the bar. But the California bar puts up on its website every six months detailed results on how people do by race. That's how we know there's a big racial disparity on bar passage. So that would seem to violate this restriction. We also know that the bar has done studies very similar to the one that we're proposing to do. They have been very simple studies. They haven't used all the methodological tools that we'd like to use, but nonetheless the subject matter is very similar. We're suspicious because a lot of law schools are very concerned about not making public how students admitted with preferences do on the bar exam. The results are likely to be very embarrassing to schools all the way from Stanford to Southwestern. As a result, schools are very paranoid about this data becoming public. It doesn't change the fact that this is a legitimate research interest and the bar is a public agency. Joe Hicks>> Holly, I wouldn't say you, but is the state bar concerned that there may be some imagery here, that there's something that the state bar is afraid will actually be divulged if it in fact gives out this data? Are you concerned that it may be an image that -- Holly Fujie>> -- I will tell you that it really has nothing to do with it. We were not looking at the issue of the political correctness, as you might say, about the particular study or what it might or might not show. But outside of that, you have a number of issues. For example, you have the fact that the disclosure as to race is not mandatory in order to take the bar exam, so there are hundreds of people who do not designate their race, which makes the information not as helpful as perhaps Professor Sander hopes it would be. The other thing is, obviously it's not checked and it's not something that we're going to penalize anybody if they put the wrong race down. I always use the example -- although I probably shouldn't -- which is that my children are half Asian and half Caucasian. How they designate themselves is entirely up to them. They can say they're white, they can say that they're Asian, they can say they're mixed. They can say whatever they please. The fact is, it's not reliable information. Joe Hicks>> How would you correct for what Holly is saying in terms of the people misidentifying themselves or people that are multiracial? Richard Sander>> Well, I'm sensitive to that issue. I have a son who's half-black and half-white, so we deal with those same issues all the time. But the fact is that those issues exist with all databases. The census, until the last census, didn't have a box for multiracial. We've been doing studies for decades, often very, very important and very powerful studies, that are based on the reality that information is not a hundred percent accurate. Everything we know suggests that the bar data is ninety-eight or ninety-nine percent accurate. That's more than enough to do very reliable studies. Holly Fujie>> My reaction is that, again, the bar exam is the bar exam. We need to be sure at the state bar that the bar exam is fair, and that's what we test for. That's why we do include studies that do involve race. We try to come up with as much data as we can under the circumstances. But, again, the purpose of our studies is to determine whether it's fair. I don't think that anything Professor Sander has to say in terms of his mismatch theory affects the fairness of the exam. Either it's fair or it's not. Joe Hicks>> What's the implication of getting the data and then discovering that there's something that's problematic at the level of entering law students that are black and Latino? Richard Sander>> If we can correct the problems that are associated with the mismatch effect, it would mean nationwide a thousand more black lawyers every year. It would mean eight hundred more Hispanic lawyers every year. And it would avoid the tragedy of people who go through three years of laws school, run up a hundred fifty thousand dollars in debt, and never become lawyers. Joe Hicks>> Has the state bar, Holly, had any discussions? I mean, you don't want to reveal, you know, discussions you've had behind closed doors, but has there been some discussions of anything near a mismatch theory in issues that may be taking place because of preferential treatment for entering minority students? Has there been any discussions of that one way or the other? Holly Fujie>> Not throughout the time that I've been onboard. This is now my third year on the board and there hasn't been any discussions at all on that subject. I think that the issue becomes, again, that Professor Sander says that much of this information is already available as far as saying what racial pass rates are on the bar. That information is in fact available, so to say that they need to have this additional study to show that you need more support in law school, I think, is disingenuous. Joe Hicks>> Thanks, guys, for coming in and discussing this in a very civil way, which is always the best way to talk about these things. Holly Fujie>> Thank you very much, Joe. Thank you, Rick. Richard Sander>> Thanks, Joe. Announcer>> To send a comment or a question to our program, you can reach us by mail at this address: Life and Times 4401 Sunset Blvd. Los Angeles, California 90027 You can also call our viewer comment line (323) 953-5555) or contact us the fast way by e-mail at kcet.org. Val Zavala>> It's an extraordinary place, the new Chinese garden at the Huntington in San Marino. It's the largest garden outside of China and the only Chinese garden in California. It's destined to be a must-see. [Film Clip] Val Zavala>> The result of ten years of intense research and meticulous work is this, a three and a half acre, eighteen million dollar recreation of a seventeenth century Chinese garden that promises to make the already acclaimed Huntington Gardens even more renowned. It has nine bridges, a tea house, eight pavilions, a waterfall and winding paths bordered by eight hundred fifty tons of limestone imported from China. And throughout the structures, you'll discover poetry in literary themes that infuse the garden with a deeper, softer beauty. June Li>> The name of the garden is Liu Fang Yuan, which is the "Garden of Flowing Fragrance". Val Zavala>> June Li is an expert on Chinese art and culture and the garden's curator. June Li>> Choosing the names was the fun thing here. We had three scholars help us. Two of them are professors of Chinese literature and very familiar with garden culture. [Film Clip] Val Zavala>> The names are as beautiful as the garden itself. "The Wall of Colorful Clouds", "Terrace of the Jade Mirror", "Bridge of the Verdant Mist". And the small thatch roof hut down there is called "Pavilion for Washing Away Thoughts". But, says June, none of this was here when they were choosing the names. June Li>> In Chinese gardens, usually they were built, but today we were naming the sites before we built it. Val Zavala>> When we first visited the garden six months ago, it was still under construction. This is how it looked then, and now. [Film Clip] Val Zavala>> It's no small irony that Henry Huntington's fortune was made in part on railroads built by Chinese labor. Nearly a hundred years later, the Huntington has brought more than sixty of the best stone artisans, wood carvers and tile experts from China. It's their expert skills that has brought historic authenticity to this ambitious project. [Film Clip] Val Zavala>> The garden is modeled after sixteenth and seventeenth century gardens in Suzhou, China during the Ming Dynasty when elegance and good taste reigned. June Li>> You know, they had money and it was a way to express their status in a very understated way, although not so understated because they were all quite elaborate. But it was better than buying gold and, you know, having a lot of the shiny stuff. So that was the era of building very tasteful, elegant gardens. [Film Clip] June Li>> These are all clay tiles that were baked in kilns in Suzhou. They were made to our specifications. The drip tiles are the triangular ones -- Val Zavala>> -- that hang down. June Li>> That hang down. They're called drip tiles because, when it rains, it's supposed to direct water. Val Zavala>> Oh, down to the point. June Li>> Down to the point. And what you'll have when it's raining really hard is that you'll have these concentrated threads of water forming like a curtain. Val Zavala>> It's no accident that the Garden of Flowing Fragrance looks like a painting. June Li>> Because garden designers in the seventeenth century Ming Dynasty, most of them and especially the one that we know about, Ji Cheng, were painters. They weren't trained as landscape designers, but they designed gardens as if they were painting a landscape painting. Val Zavala>> Nearly everything in the garden is hand-crafted. June Li>> And you'll notice that they are not exactly square windows. They're really parallelograms and they actually present a kind of motion as you walk along the wall. Whether you're outside of the garden looking in, they attract you. They present little glimpses of the garden. Val Zavala>> With so many exquisite views, I asked June a difficult question. Which was her favorite? June Li>> That's a hard question. I think one of my favorite spots is on that little zigzag bridge across the way. That bridge is called the "Bridge of the Joyful Fish". When you're standing there or walking along, you get different views of this whole garden here on this side, all the pavilions around this lake. You'll often see the heron or the egret that comes swooping down the water and sometimes he's like one of the rocks. Val Zavala>> For June, an art curator, this project brought unique satisfaction. June Li>> We're not doing a display for a museum gallery, but we are doing a display where people actually walk into it. We're painting a painting where people can walk in. Chinese landscape paintings really have this idea of creating a microcosm of the universe, bringing the large into the small. In a way, we too are bringing the larger form of nature into our smaller form of the garden. In another complex or layered way, we are also mimicking the small, which is the painting, into the large by inviting people to come in. Val Zavala>> Like all gardens, this one will evolve. The trees and plants will grow and even the structures may change, but that too is part of Chinese tradition. June Li>> When we go to China today, we still see some of those gardens in Suzhou that are wonderfully preserved. But inevitably, we also see some later features because gardens, as you know, just grow with the owners. Whoever comes in will -- Val Zavala>> - may grow or change. June Li>> Exactly. We've taken some of that and we're fully aware that, in twenty years' time, maybe this garden, after we've created it the way that we want to, would have evolved into something more complex or different. Val Zavala>> But that would be part of the tradition too. June Li>> That would be part of the tradition, absolutely. Val Zavala>> The new Chinese garden opens to the public February 23. For details, you can go to their website at huntington.org. And that's our program. I'm Val Zavala. Thanks for watching. We'll see you next time. Announcer>> Life and Times was made possible through the generous support of the L.K. Whittier Foundation dedicated to improving the quality of life by supporting innovative endeavors in the fields of medicine, health, science and education. And by a generous grant from Jim and Anne Rothenberg. With additional support for Life and Times from The Ralph M. Parsons Foundation. Sponsored in part by:  | |
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